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Electric Supercharger Install + Testing + Q&A

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  • Robftss
    replied
    Thanks MOOG and WW!

    Here is a link to an FR-S being tested. Fenton was very nice to offer his car for testing.

    http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

    Rob

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  • Wild Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by MOOG View Post
    Just had a proper look through this thread. I'm excited to see something that looks like its actually going to work.

    Also just had a solid read through your site Weasel - impressive.

    Jenga keep me posted
    Thanks man, that's much appreciated!!

    Rob's got a couple more people doing testing these days, and I believe he should have some independent dyno results on the way. I'm happy to be able spread the new info. I had a great time playing with the car again and doing the testing! Now I'm just working out the timing on getting the stuff I have installed in a friend's RSX-S to see how it behaves with a higher-revving engine. I don't actually expect much difference in the results as the blower has no idea what RPM's the engine is doing, but we'll see. Now we're really just having fun with it.

    And hey... drop a note in my guestbook. You'll be the only Internet-famous person to ever do so!
    Last edited by Wild Weasel; 26-06-2013, 12:00 AM.

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  • EnduraTurbo
    replied
    it would be real nice if it did work, very glad to see the testing too

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  • MOOG
    replied
    Just had a proper look through this thread. I'm excited to see something that looks like its actually going to work.

    Also just had a solid read through your site Weasel - impressive.

    Jenga keep me posted

    Leave a comment:


  • Robftss
    replied
    TP% vs PWR%2.png

    Graphical rep of %TP vs %Engine power.

    -Red line, WW @ 100% activation
    -Blue line, @ 80% activation
    -Orange line, variable speed vs %TP

    So... I have chased after that 'triangle', neat but not really worth the effort. You can see that full activation @ ~80% gets you nearly the same results, if you want the engine to 'feel' bigger then modifying throttle leverage or get a sprintbooster. Activation before 70% TP is moot, activation needs to occur when the base N/A engine is starting to run out of breath. Duty cycle would be marginally effected if used in the 'triangle' region.

    Now, there are NOS type controllers available which can activate 'stages' or reference the tach, they can be used with the Phantom FTS.

    In the case of a large turbo for drag racing I suggest: E-blower pre-TB, NOS RPM window switch (2000-4000 rpm) and a sewage 2" + dia. by pass parallel to e-blower.

    Dennis, thank for the positive comments!

    Rob

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  • Wild Weasel
    replied
    Originally posted by 2JZR31 View Post
    Here is a question that has been largely missed. What sort of power loss do you get with the unit not switched on? I wonder with all the dyno testing, if anyone done a run with the unit off just to see how much restriction it causes when not powered up. I know the answer is that it does not matter, so long as the unit it working. But I would like to know anyway.
    I actually put a lot of thought into this a while back and touched on it a bit here. The answer is really "none". Now... I suppose someone could make an argument for the slight bit of extra drag on the alternator while it's charging, but once it's charged that will be nothing as well. The reason for this is that any restriction caused by the blower in line but not running is immediately overcome by simply opening the throttle a little more. So you get exactly as much air into the engine as you want. The only time a restriction in the intake is an issue is when you want more air but can't get any. Then you've got a power restriction.

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  • Tumbles
    replied
    Originally posted by Jenga View Post
    Well, I'll aim to plug it into a ~2.0L engine. There are plenty of cars like that around...

    From what Rob has been saying, the Cuore may not be an ideal test bed anyway. Either way, I'll make something work.
    Is this where I come in?

    This thread has been a long read.

    Leave a comment:


  • SW20
    replied
    would something like this be suitable for a 5S-FE, I am not looking for a lot, just a little more.

    thanks,
    rich

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  • 2JZR31
    replied
    Hey WW. I mentioned using TPS values in the the RC groups thread. I cant see why it would be that hard. This is mostly RC gear and that is pretty much what the indented purpose of the gear is when they user their remotes to accelerate their RC car etc. But you are right that whatever system you use, care must be taken to not drain the battery. There are so many options for this and I find it all very interesting.

    For example, you have a speed input. When vehicle speed is zero (stopped at the lights), the unit may then switch to a more aggressive ramp up rate in anticipation of taking off. Once you are moving again, it goes back to a more power friendly setting. The possibilities to set this up are endless...

    Here is a question that has been largely missed. What sort of power loss do you get with the unit not switched on? I wonder with all the dyno testing, if anyone done a run with the unit off just to see how much restriction it causes when not powered up. I know the answer is that it does not matter, so long as the unit it working. But I would like to know anyway.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 05-06-2013, 02:26 PM.

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  • Wild Weasel
    replied
    You obviously know a fair bit about boost. I actually talked a bit with Rob about the issues with surging when the air doesn't have anywhere to go. It came up in conversation when he was advising me not to activate the blower with the engine off just for giggles. It makes a hell of a racket.

    I'm not sure that the limitation with the small blower has to do with the electric motor, per se, but rather with the power supply. Rob will correct me if I'm wrong, but you're right in that the small blower would need to turn much faster to keep up at the higher rpm's (and would probably make too much boost on the low end) but you can only do so much with the 24v available. That's why the bigger one didn't make more boost at lower rpm's. It's just moving the efficiency around a bit.

    I think all of your ideas are valid, but as I mentioned earlier, they'll require more fine control over the motor and I'm not sure how the power requirements will come into play. For drag racing it would be great. You'd get exactly what you want. But for everyday driving, you'd need to control the boost to act more like a regular turbo, coming on right away and then ramping up more and more as you give more throttle. Then you'd get exactly what you wanted. But if you're basically always using at least some power for it, I don't know how long the batteries would hold up. As it is now, with it only coming on at full throttle (and I may change mine to come on at 80% throttle) it has plenty of charging time between uses and is practically impossible to run down. This wouldn't be the case in your scenario though.

    From what Rob has described to me, this fine control is all possible, but I have no idea how close he is to making it happen. I had the idea of doing away with the switch and just reading the TPS values. So... you know... if that ever happens... yay me?

    Leave a comment:


  • 2JZR31
    replied
    Wild W, I did see your compound boost setup worked well with the larger compressor. My point was that this restriction effect would not occur when used to compound a turbo installation as I described. Seems to me the only reason the larger works better is because the motor does not have enough RPM to turn the smaller compressor fast enough. This seems to be a limitation of the motor rather than the compressor?

    I cant see why this system could not reduce turbo lag almost totally. The compressor would surge when trying to flow boost into an engine at very low revs. All that would be needed is a bypass that allowed the boosted air to circulate just enough to increase the flow volume to get past the surge line. This may be wasteful though, but could be implemented somehow. Specially for drag races etc to take the place of other more extreme anti lag measures. No more crazy loose torque converters just to get the car on boost then sap power due to slippage.
    Last edited by 2JZR31; 05-06-2013, 08:39 AM.

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  • 2JZR31
    replied
    Cheers guys. Rob I have linked to your website from a few forums. I think your kit is one of the best value for money performance mods you can do.

    The Audi setup is interesting. Similar to what I proposed, but they by pass it, rather than keep it running. If it is kept running it wont be a restriction provided it is sized to be able to produce boost at redline on its own. Their solution is very complicated but it does allow the electric turbo to be switched off once the real turbo spools up to save power.

    I was more thinking of using it on modifed cars with large turbos. Many people are doing turbo upgrades, and one thing they always think of is lag. So they need to compromise between the top end power they want, and a decent usable rev range. IF you compound it with an electric turbo, you can have the turbo you wanted for top end power, and still have less lag than your stock turbo.

    When you compounded your legacy, did you fit the electric turbo before or after the real turbo? Isnt a legacy twin turbo? This idea is best suited to a car with lag. Not much point for a stock turbo car unless its laggy.

    http://media.caspianmedia.com/image/...g/size:750x500

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  • Robftss
    replied
    I have updated my site with compressor CAD drwgs and compressor MAPs to illustrate its operating range.

    I'm starting a DIY section as well, presently a wiring hook-up schematic is posted. More to come on 'what you need' to successfully install.

    phantomsuperchargers.com




    Rob

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  • Robftss
    replied
    A compressor is a mass moving machine that can raise pressure as long as it working in its effective mass range.

    Look up Audi's bypassable, post turbo, e-booster. It will be a constriction when shut off, so it is bypassed. No need to run it when the exhaust turbo is working.

    Brushless driven forced induction is not new, there are patents from the 70's. Other like Valeo,CPT,Aeristech, turbodyne are business / engineering firms trying to sell their tech to the OEM. They are all WAY to expensive for the aftermarket.


    RPMS 35K to 60K depending on unit. I will have MAPs and compressor dimensions on my site soon.

    I have tried compounding my Legacy 2.5L, worked really really good for standing start launches! The rest of the time, well, wastegate says "that's all"!

    Cheers, Rob

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  • Wild Weasel
    replied
    Also... as far as the restriction goes... I couldn't begin to address that. I'm going to assume you're right as you sound like you know what you're talking about, but I expect Rob can address that in detail. I know you're right in that having it after the turbo will make a big difference in how it works. I know Rob had some concerns about the small blower being driven in line with my M45 since, once it became a restriction, it was basically spinning freely with no load as more air was being pulled through it than it was providing. I sent it back to Rob for inspection. He said it came through with flying colours and had no issues, but I understand the concern. With your idea, however, there's still going to be a load on it as it's still going to be further compressing what's being pushed into it. So I expect you're right. It may not spin as fast as it has a tougher job of compressing denser air, but that air is still gong to get through just fine, as I understand it.

    Need Rob to chime in before I hurt my brain here.

    Leave a comment:

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