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Electric Supercharger Install + Testing + Q&A

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  • I'll sort something out. I've got tools at my disposal, so I'm happy to do any further ground work. I do know that if I can prove this thing works, then Marty and Moog would be very keen to see it in real life the next time I'm down in Sydney.

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    • I will prepare the parts, I need to know the base HP please.

      I understand seeing is believing so if Marty & Moog are within your reach, being their near Top Gear fame now,....well that is quite a contact.

      As far as 'prove', you see, it was easy to knock on wildweasel's door since he has a DIY & e-scam website for nearly ten years, and with that comes responsibility for the truth, right?

      Regarding tools, my kitted cars can be installed with minimal tools and mechanical experience, a DIY integration of any forced induction system requires the knowledge of a proper setup and some ingenuity. Ultimately, lets make it work! For those that want to see what I've done go to my youtube vids, Robftss.

      Rob

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      • For what it's worth, as you can see from my pics, the install for me was dead simple. Rob worked with me over a couple weeks of taking pics and measuring stuff and then it was pretty much just a matter of slapping everything into place. Mine was a bit of a special case to begin with obviously... but it's really no different than installing an intake.

        From my perspective, especially knowing the layout under the hood of my MS3, the biggest issue for most installs is going to be finding a good place for the batteries. There's always the trunk, but it's nicer to have them up front without the lengthy wiring and what not. The fact that all 3 batteries were able to sit on my battery tray with just a little jury-rigging to hold them in place made the rest of my install easy as pie.

        Once I got to testing... swapping between the big blower, the small one, and the stock intake tube quite literally involved nothing more than a flat-head screwdriver.
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        • The target application will be a sub-100kW engine.

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          • I wonder if people are going to pick on your results the same as they did mine. For me it was "that M45 MUST be doing something significant so your results are shady!" For you it's going to be "that engine is so small a hair dryer could boost it, this can't apply to normal engine sizes!".

            It would be nice if Marty and Moog could re-do the same test they did previously but with this kit instead of the crap they had.

            Incidentally... if anyone is reading this through a link and isn't a member and wants to ask me anything, I'm now on twitter. Follow me @WildWeaselGT

            Of course, I'm probably doing twitter entirely wrong... but I'll figure it out eventually.
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            • Well, I'll aim to plug it into a ~2.0L engine. There are plenty of cars like that around...

              From what Rob has been saying, the Cuore may not be an ideal test bed anyway. Either way, I'll make something work.

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              • Come on mate... I wasn't picking on your results. I was scrutinizing them.
                And the world would be a better place if that sort of thing happened more often instead of "close enough is good enough"
                I questioned your method, not your results.

                I would still prefer to see your results without the m45 there at all. But we can't have that now can we?
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                • Originally posted by mikey_something View Post
                  Come on mate... I wasn't picking on your results. I was scrutinizing them.
                  And the world would be a better place if that sort of thing happened more often instead of "close enough is good enough"
                  I questioned your method, not your results.

                  I would still prefer to see your results without the m45 there at all. But we can't have that now can we?
                  Oh... make no mistake, I'm quite happy that you and everyone else was scrutinizing my results! Please don't take my wording to indicate any sort of annoyance or anything. I wouldn't have it any other way. The fact is though, that if you still have doubts then I expect that people coming across my pages will also have doubts and in those cases, I can't have any idea of what they're thinking or have any way to address them. That's where having further evidence will really help my case.

                  As an example, I came across this thread...

                  http://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=272428

                  In there, even after reading my testing page, they come to this conclusion:

                  Originally posted by cb1rocket
                  What I seem to understand, is that the boost comes on far too early at low revs (well the blower is an on/off switch?) and that the fuel mixture isn't calibrated/set up, therefore running lean in my opinion!
                  It's tough to read that sort of thing and not want to sign up on every forum that picks up my site to try to address those sorts of questions. I mean... the boost doesn't come on too early... it comes on exactly when you decide it should by pressing the pedal... and an EFI engine won't run lean if it has the capability to add enough fuel.

                  I'm actually using those sorts of random web-finds to tweak my page over the next week or two so I can try to address those sorts of things up front and avoid the questions in the first place.

                  People SHOULD be skeptical. I've said that from the beginning, and that hasn't changed. I was hugely skeptical myself when I started this project. But now that I'm convinced regarding my results, I'd like to make them as clear and well explained as possible and if there are lingering holes in my testing, having someone like Marty and Moog also doing testing would be a big help. I'm a rather small fish in the Internet ocean compared to those guys, so there's no reason people shouldn't doubt that I might be in cahoots with Rob and just posting what he wants to promote sales. Having more prominent people with the same results helps solidify my credibility.
                  Last edited by Wild Weasel; 31-05-2013, 12:21 AM. Reason: Fixed typo.
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                  • I live close enough to Jenga to see it in person so ill definitely be watching closely if he does it.
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                    • Good stuff. Incidentally, now that I'm not tied to a 10 day window... when the blowers come back I should be able to get my hands on a belt that will fit around the blower so that test may still happen in the future just to get it off the table.
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                      • All,

                        I am making arrangements with Jenga for a two stage test.

                        1st. Jenga is up for a partial integration on an AE86, old school!, with a dyno if all goes well.

                        2nd. I will also send him all the components to make the drop in VW 2.0L kit. If a donor car is available let us know, it will truly provide conclusive proof. Either way, after the AE86 evaluation Jenga has agreed to pass the kit on to Marty & Moog. Stay tuned!

                        I am looking forward to wild weasel's 'beltless M45' test.

                        Rob.

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                        • Hey guys. I came up with the idea to use the compressor side of a turbo with a DC brushless motor and made a thread on PF and the RC groups. After doing some searching I finally found this thread and it appears someone has already done what I have proposed. Good work to all involved.

                          http://www.performanceforums.com/for...Electric-turbo

                          http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...5#post25087044

                          I always thought those cheap fan style superchargers were a joke, and didn't need any testing to convince me they will not work. As mentioned by Jenga and WW, you need a compressor and some real power to run it. These fan blowers are a scam and nothing more.

                          I do not doubt the success of Robs unit and of WWs tests. IMO the bypassed M45 is only an unfortunate situation which instills doubt to some even though its contribution to overall boost was almost insignificant.

                          It was mentioned that one day it would be good to fit an electric motor to a real turbo with turbine to reduce lag. Yes this has already been done by some big manufacturers. However, and its a HUGE however.

                          An electric SC like the one I proposed or Robs existing unit is already the answer to eliminating turbo lag on a turbocharged car.

                          The best application I can think of to use this device would be in a compound arrangement. You would use it on a regular turboed engine, but with a larger than normal turbo. The electric turbo goes between the big turbo and the intercooler. The characteristics of the electric turbo are that it can make a lot of boost down low and less higher up. This will be perfect in the compound arrangement.

                          At low RPM the ET will provide lag free performance all while providing a lot of exhaust gas to spool the bigger turbo up. The small turbo will NOT be a restriction to the flow of the large turbo since it is after the large turbo and will be handing small volumes of air (but a large mass) since the air will be compressed by the big turbo. As long as the ET is able to produce some positive boost on the engine on its own at redline it will be a power adder at all revs.

                          I know I will have some people disagree here in regards to the small electric turbo not being a restriction. Wild Weasels test showed his small turbo was a restriction when used in a compound setup with a supercharger. But this is to be expected since adding a something like a M45 effectively increases the size of the engine as far as the electric turbo is concerned, so the ET now has to supply more air to produce boost since the ET has to feed into the blower.

                          Now if you put the ET in between a real turbo and and engine this does not occur. The ET will flow much more air mass once the real turbo spools up since the air will be compressed, but the air volume will be unchanged. What this means is that as long as the ET is able to supply real boost on the non turbocharged version of the engine at redline it will NOT be a restriction no matter what size the real turbo is.

                          Adding stages (compound boost) increases efficiency, so more power is to be had in total as well. This normally is not the case in most twin charge setups due to the power draw required to run the compounding device. Such as restrictive exhaust plumbing in the case of twin compound turbos, or the power needed to turn a blower.

                          Cheers, Dennis
                          Home built 2JZ powered Skyline: 10.83 @ 125mph

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                          • Rob what is the power rating of your motor and how many RPM does it turn the compressor?
                            Home built 2JZ powered Skyline: 10.83 @ 125mph

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                            • Hi Dennis!

                              I think you already saw it, but it's worth noting that the compound setup with the bigger blower worked brilliantly. Now... as for eliminating lag... I think you'd drastically reduce it for a large turbo, but I'm not sure how this setup would work in a situation where you're using such a big turbo. A smaller one capable of producing 15 psi or so may not have any more lag than the electric one has. This thing spools up very quickly... but it's not instant. There's still a noticeable lag. It's not dramatic (I'd say it's quite similar to my Mazdaspeed3) but it's there. In this application, it actually adds a bit to the fun, but if the goal is to eliminate lag, this isn't really going to get you there unless the large turbo you need has a LOT of lag.

                              This application COULD eliminate lag but would need more in the way of the electronics to make that happen. The electric blower could be made to spin up to half-speed or something at 50% throttle and then come all the way on as the throttle increases, or some such thing. Really, the technology has the capability to have absolutely no lag at all since it's not dependent on anything like exhaust flow to get going. It's just not there yet with the current control box.

                              Funny. As I'm typing this the questions are answering themselves. So maybe this IS something that will be possible down the road a bit.
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                              • Also... as far as the restriction goes... I couldn't begin to address that. I'm going to assume you're right as you sound like you know what you're talking about, but I expect Rob can address that in detail. I know you're right in that having it after the turbo will make a big difference in how it works. I know Rob had some concerns about the small blower being driven in line with my M45 since, once it became a restriction, it was basically spinning freely with no load as more air was being pulled through it than it was providing. I sent it back to Rob for inspection. He said it came through with flying colours and had no issues, but I understand the concern. With your idea, however, there's still going to be a load on it as it's still going to be further compressing what's being pushed into it. So I expect you're right. It may not spin as fast as it has a tougher job of compressing denser air, but that air is still gong to get through just fine, as I understand it.

                                Need Rob to chime in before I hurt my brain here.
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